Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Daily Veg News on November 18, 2007 at 6:48am

"...nobody wants to feel like their being forced or guilted into giving up meat, leather, or dairy"

I think the animals being tortured in factory farms and labs probably don't care too much how these people deal with their guilt; rather more is at stake for those animals.

"All it does is make Vegetarians and Vegans look like panty-waste hippies."

Yeah, these guys look like real hippies:

http://www.shac.net/ARCHIVES/2007/november/12.htm

I'll bet the Norwegian whalers thought the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society were hippies too, right up until they woke up one day wondering why half of their fleet was at the bottom of the harbour. No-one's ever dared call me a hippy either. But I digress.

"we need to bring the issues of other things like the link between the meat and dairy industries with environmental pollution"

Yes, we do: like this?

http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp

"...cut back to make room to show other dangers of how the meat and dairy industries affect ourselves, our economy, our environment and our earth's animals"

I'm able to make time for all of these and still push the cruelty aspect; we need to make sure all of the messages get out there, and we are. The last time I wore a PETA shirt, someone remarked that they could see I was into looking after the environment, without any prompting from me.

Regardless, none of this actually touches the core aspect that we also need to promote; animals exist for their own sake, not for ours. This is at the heart of animal rights and veganism and it's the message that people need to hear after they've accepted the cruelty issue, or the environmental one, or the health one, or any other thing that results in them chosing vegetarianism.

So, the short version is, I half agree with you. We need to present all of the facts, but there's no need to hang back on any of it.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Kamaniya * DO YOUR PART! visit stoppuppymills.org on November 18, 2007 at 7:06am

Excellent post, Daily Veg News, thank you so much.

"The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men." ~ Alice Walker, The Color Purple

"Animals are God's creatures, not human property, nor utilities, nor resources, nor commodities, but precious beings in God's sight. ... Christians whose eyes are fixed on the awfulness of crucifixion are in a special position to understand the awfulness of innocent suffering. The Cross of Christ is God's absolute identification with the weak, the powerless, & the vulnerable, but most of all with unprotected, undefended, innocent suffering." ~ Rev. Andrew Linzey

"I ask people why they have deer heads on their walls. They always say because it's such a beautiful animal. There you go. I think my mother is attractive, but I have photographs of her" ~ Ellen DeGeneres

"I do wish we could chat longer, but... I'm having an old friend for dinner. Bye." ~ Hannibal Lecter

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Capture on November 18, 2007 at 10:44am

You're my new best friend!!

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Brett on November 18, 2007 at 3:06pm

"I think the animals being tortured in factory farms and labs probably don't care too much how these people deal with their guilt; rather more is at stake for those animals."

I disagree. I think a tortured animal would like a human to see what they are going through and be saved. But with most human's perception of animals, an animals life would not be worth saving over their own. That's why we must show that not eating animals is not just an ethical gesture, but a relevant act that effects them beyond the emotional level.

"Yeah, these guys look like real hippies:"

I think this link is a little bit off topic, but i'll address it anyways. This is a laboratory where they experiment on animals, where we are asking people to make an ethical food choice. What goes on in a laboratory is completely different than what goes on at a factory farm. No where does this note that any of these people are vegetarians. These people are protesting abuse of animals without any practical means to an end. Punching dogs and cutting open live primates have no logical means to an end, so of course this is something that everybody can get behind and protest. We are talking about animals used as food here though. And more people can justify the abuse of a cow or pig if it means food in their stomach. This is wrong and has to change. But knowing that these animals went through hell to become food isn't enough for most meat eaters. We need more.

"Yes, we do: like this?

http://www.goveg.com/environment.asp"

I'm not saying that the information isn't already out there. But never have I seen a vegetarian group protesting (I live in chicago) saying not to eat and wear animals for any other reason than cruelty. The first time I saw anything was at an event by my home where Earthsave Chicago had a booth set up, that had useful information about how animal agriculture affects our environment.

So yes the information beyond cruelty is out there, but whenever I talk to people about why I'm vegan, their first guess is because I'm an animal lover. While this is true, it's such a larger issue, and I think that most of the population doesn't know about it, or isn't interested in knowing about it because angry vegetarians are shoving pictures of abused animals in their faces. But not all protesters are like that. I've encountered many friendly activists from Earthsave and Vegan Outreach that I felt were sending the right message. But the majority of what I've witnessed hurts the movement more than helps.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Daily Veg News on November 18, 2007 at 5:14pm

"But never have I seen a vegetarian group protesting (I live in chicago) saying not to eat and wear animals for any other reason than cruelty."

*photo not taken in Chicago

http://blog.peta.org/archives/2007/09/wanna_fix_globa.php

Out of interest, are you out on the street promoting these other ideas?

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Warwak on November 18, 2007 at 7:52am

To many people within the movement spend too much time and energy undermining each other with such talk. Anything we do will help when we have so far to go. We need to stand united. The problem is dealing with adults who were already indoctrinated into a violent society that prefers to live in denial. Anything we do will get backlash. Our job is to make them uncomfortable. Children love learning about it - adults do not. Lets start teaching the kids before they are indoctinated. Stop worrying about the twisted precepts of those who critize us for anything we do. We are not the ones with the problem. Be proud and talk of any issue that bothers you, whether it is evironment, cruelty, and/or other. If we added all the time wasted bickering with each other about the "welfare versus liberation" issue, we would have millions of hours that could have been spent converting children. Vegans who sit back and critize others for the AR movement's failures have blood on their hands for wasting time and not getting out in the street. Priorites!

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Brett on November 18, 2007 at 3:11pm

You do have a point. But just like a when a military brigade is out fighting but not making enough progress, they have to stop, and rethink their strategy to make their efforts more successful. This is an important discussion, and not thinking any further about it, and just going out doing whats already been done, is not helping the animals either.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Daily Veg News on November 18, 2007 at 3:15pm

"To many people within the movement spend too much time and energy undermining each other with such talk. Anything we do will help when we have so far to go."

YES!!! This is something I've very recently come up against and you've said it perfectly. Certain leaders of certain movements (who I will not name) spend ALL of their time undermining a certain very successful animal rights group who sometimes also participate in animal welfare campaigns. What the critics miss is that the welfare issues gain support from far more people; at this point they are then more likely to take on board a presentation of the facts about rights and liberation. That's what happened for both myself and my partner, for example.

The only time I've criticized a tactic is when a welfare group's campaign promoted an increase in local slaughterhouses (and promotion of the chilled carcass trade). I made my point once and moved on; anything more is counterproductive.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Naturespirit on November 18, 2007 at 8:45am

While I appreciate that some people might be put off by too much anti-animal cruelty (but not as much as animals are), it was the awareness of animal cruelty and suffering, that led to my decision to become vegetarian. Had I known more about the effect of meat and dairy on health in those days, I would have given up eating meat sooner than I did.

The impact of modern meat and dairy production on health is largely suppressed and should be opened up a lot more. After two bouts of cancer, I decided to give up dairy and become vegan. Since then I have been cancer free. We must also consider pollution and the creation of superbugs such as MRSA, caused by factory farming, that have become resistant to antibiotics.

There are also economic considerations - how can the wastage of western meat production be justified when half the world is starving, and we could all live comfortably on vegan food?

The animal rights movement is not only concerned about meat production but also animal testing, fighting, baiting, chaining and many other ways in which humans abuse animals. Although animal rights do not constitute the only reason for vegetarianism, it will always be true that for many vegetarians, it is the awareness of animal suffering and animal rights that create the motivation to become vegetarian in the first place.

Furthermore, given that it is animals that are eaten by meat eaters, animal rights should always be included in any discussion about vegetarianism/veganism versus meat eating.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Brett on November 18, 2007 at 3:14pm

All good points. But for the record, I never said we should stop exposing the cruelty of eating animals. All I'm saying is that the other points, which you've brought up here, deserve more attention because I think less people know about them versus the cruelty to animals.

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by oudy on December 22, 2007 at 12:11pm

i would tend 2 agree witd u on ur aspect of this subject,, and i may add that i am happy 4 u that u r no longer ,, consuming death. meat that is, . by the way isit me or does ur tree look like its posin or dancin like a balarina. also the awareness is not so much about what r instilled definition of animal rights r as i beleive it is about the true definition of what an animal actually is. we speak of animal rights as though they r apart or separate from what and who we r. if god resides in any of r hearts,, then excuse me but do not the ones we kill 4 meat not n possesion of a heart. so then could it not b said that we r actually consumin r very own brothers and sisters. i believe we need 2 seis distancing rselves from r wards.. now dont get me wrong , n no way am i putin a religious twist on this.. 4 i am not religious, but rather spiritual. and so my concern, is that the very same spirit which keeps me livin is not seperate from that of the dog, cat, horse, cow, pig, fish, chicken, and so 4th and so on. but im jus sayin,, ur servant,, chow... oudy

▶ Reply to This

Permalink Reply by Jason on November 18, 2007 at 9:03am

First off, there is really alot to comment on here. First off, isn't the word hippie, short for hypocrite, which is grossly misused when refering to the vegetarian people, they believe in not harming animals, so they don't eat them. Ok, if you are one of these people who say for instance I am vegetarian, but eat fish, and chicken occasionally but that isn't meat, then yes hippie is the correct word, but in the instance of people who believe in this cause, and live their lives by their morals, and ethics, that word is mearly the retoric of the angry, weak, and frightened. Pantie waste??? I can't even understand this word being used, I am sure you must know the strength of character it takes to just live your life as a vegetarian in our society today, let alone actually stand up and tell people what they are doing is wrong, the opposite of pantie waste is actually the words that come to mind. Who ever is using this phrase " hippie pantie waste" is probably not intellectually sound, and feeling insecure, and threatened, and probably largely because somewhere in this person's consciousness they know that killing and eating animals needlessly IS wrong, so they lash out in sometimes even uglier fashion than that.

So if you want to say that all the protesting, and holding up signs threatens the ignorant, and therefore has a reverse or anti-productive effect, I would say that I firmly believe that the truth is almost always the best policy, and anyone offended by the truth probably needs the rude awakening.

I am not really person that tries to change people, because in my experience you really can't change people, they have to change themselves. I try to lead by example, tell the truth as often as I can, I offer help to those who want it, but have given up trying to change the minds of the unwilling, and resign to the fact that I need to let those people alone, the same way I want to be left alone by them. But showing pictures of the violence that in fact does happen to these animals, but has convieniently been removed from our society by people who basically just want to sell their products.

I applaud anyone who has the courage to stand up for what they believe in, especially those who stand up for the rights of others. I only wish I could learn to emulate that same courage myself.

▶ Reply to This

• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• 8