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Permalink Reply by Cassandra on December 28, 2007 at 11:41pm

Most of the time I eat eggs from my pet chickens. I only buy free range from the store when my chickens are not laying any eggs. Also, my chickens have had baby chicks before but there's no way I will sell or give any of the roosters away without the people promising to keep them as pets, not food. I would even make somebody sign a paper promising not to harm any rooster that is sold or given to them by me before they get the rooster.

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Permalink Reply by peace person on December 30, 2007 at 5:58pm

It's actually standary industry practice for all male chicks of laying hens to be killed on the day they are born. Most farms including free-range farms get their baby chicks from hatcheries, and they are the ones who do the killing. They are chucked into huge bins once their sex is determined, and killed in batches by gassing or maceration (according to codes of practice), or if they've been unlucky to be one of the first in the bin, by suffocation under their brothers.

The males aren't kept for meat, because the breed of laying hens is different from meat chickens. Meat chickens are bred to grow really really quickly to be slaughtered at about 6 weeks old. Because it's all about money money money, the laying hen males would grow too slowly and it wouldn't be economical to keep them till they were big enough to eat.

This isn't hearsay! The industries themselves will admit it is standard practice.

If you have purchased hens to keep in your back-yard from a breeder, then it is almost certain that for each hen you have bought, a male chick was killed.

There is one situation I can think of, where I can't see any ethical or animal suffering issues with keeping hens. If hens have been rescued from the cages, overcrowding and filth of commercial egg farms (break-ins for this purpose are fairly common), this is to be commended. They will need to be rehabilitated and find a new home to be adopted into. There's one picture I've seen of a hen who was filthy, skinny and half bald, with most of her remaining feathers bent and twisted, just rescued from a battery cage. Then there's an "after" shot of the same hen some time later, sitting in the grass, covered in beautiful white feathers, plump and healthy looking. From this it seems rescued hens can thrive once rehabilitated. If you have a large yard, with lots of trees and bushes (I've heard hens don't like to be open to the sky to much) with protection from predators, then you could adopt some rescued hens and leave them to live their life in peace. If they leave their eggs behind, very well, you'll have to pick them up and dispose of them somehow if you don't want them to rot and smell.

I wouldn't eat eggs, though, ever, not after 7 years of not having any. It just seems wrong to eat any bodily product from any animal. I can't explain why exactly. So if you had adopted some rescued hens, and still don't find eating bodity products wrong per se, then there would be no ethical issues as far as I can see with eating their abandoned eggs.

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Permalink Reply by Hilary on January 10, 2008 at 8:46pm

I personally do not see a reason not to eat eggs IF and only if the farm you are eating them from is a BACKYARD farm, meaning that it is a farm with organically raised chickens that do not mate with roosters. Their eggs are not fertile in that case, and the chicken won't even nest when she lays her eggs. The eggs will be organic, with no hormones, and won't have had the chance to be fertilized. Plus, the chickens are pets! :-) Chickens make good backyard pets. Very sweet, smart animals.

I'd also like to say that, as I am very very VERY involved with the incubation of bird eggs (I hatch and raise babies that have been abandoned), even the fertile egg is not technically alive when it is first laid. It is exactly the same as an infertile egg with the exception of the germinal disc. However, if you did know about incubation, you'd know that a fertilized egg can be kept in cool, moist temperatures for up to 2 weeks with no decreased hatchability. Therefore, the baby has not begun to develop and therefore cannot die before the egg has been warmed to a certain temperature for a certain length of time!

However, I do agree that stealing fertile eggs from under a chicken is not nice. However, if we did not do some amount of "birth control" in birds, especially city birds with large populations (pigeons), it would risk MATURE BIRDS' LIVES!!! Pigeons, for example, are so populated that THEY ARE BRUTALLY SHOT AND KILLED EVERY DAY IN LARGE CITIES. When the birds are offered nesting boxes and this "birth control" is used, however, the population naturally goes down or stays at a good limit (they do let the birds raise some babies, just not all the time you see) and the birds are not killed.

While I agree that humans shouldn't be messing around with these birds just because they're intelligent and are able to adapt well to urban life, I think this ties into chicken keeping as well... If you didn't know as well, chickens lay their eggs, 1 every 2 or 3 days, and do not sit on their nest until they have a full clutch. A young chicken sometimes will lay her eggs in many different places and never nest at all. Therefore, unless the eggs have STARTED INCUBATION and are being set on by the hen, I see no problem with taking them away for birth control, and in some cases, the benefit of the bird.

http://www.minkhollow.ca/HatchingProgram/Candling/Resources/Illustr...

http://www.minkhollow.ca/HatchingProgram/Candling/Resources/Illustr...

'When the egg is laid, the development of the embryo (at the blastula stage) stops. Once the egg warms up past 21 C (70F) for long enough (more than an hour), development will resume.'

Source: http://www.minkhollow.ca
Candling section; day 1 of incubation.

Long live the birdies!

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Permalink Reply by Hunger Artist on January 11, 2008 at 7:55am

That is a really great bit of information, Hilary! One of the most constructive and informative replies to this discussion. Thank you very much! :)

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Permalink Reply by pradtf on January 29, 2008 at 8:22pm

this is an excellent and informative thread you started tresa! there are many good posts.

i think there are 2 issues here.

the first is an ethical one. admittedly, there is nothing unethical about taking eggs that are going to be laid anyway and just left around. however, the free range egg business is not about that. it is about keeping hens for the purpose of laying eggs which are then going to be sold in order to make a profit (or a loss). the fact that you 'take good care' of your hens doesn't change the fact that these hens are in reality being made to work for you - they are not 'animal companions'. people in the egg laying business don't keep hens because they are rescuing them or because they want to give them a good home. they keep hens so they can sell the eggs. therefore, they are treating these sentient beings as property and exploiting them.

as an illustrative comparison, in sanctuaries animals have been rescued and sometimes visitors are allowed to pay to view them which helps to cover costs of maintaining the premises. this is not necessarily exploitation - it is working together to make ends meet (so long as the process is not abused, of course). the egg business is in sharp contrast though in that it is a business that has been formed not with the intent or practice of the welfare of the hens in mind, but because someone wanted to make a buck.

the second is nutritional. consuming eggs results in large animal proteins, cholestrol etc getting into a body that really isn't remotely avian. this is not wise despite what the egg industry will tell you. while eating a few eggs may not dramatically increase cholestrol levels, animal protein often create protein antigeneity reactions in humans simply because they wander around putting the immune system on red alert. ensuing antibody responses can result in complications such as allergies, asthma, eczema and arthritis. they say the egg is a perfect food just like milk is the perfect drink, but let's not forget who these 'perfections' were design to be perfect for.

if nutritional realities aren't sufficient, one should perhaps contemplate why any person would actually put into their mouths the menstrual excretions of poultry. doing so seems to me to be totally fowl.

in friendship,
prad

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Permalink Reply by Mark on July 9, 2008 at 5:49pm

OH MY PEOPLE!
Full of righteous indignation & half truths.
NO chicken is raised in a natural enviroment, it doesn't matter how well they're looked after, their life expectancy or their end product (Meat / Eggs). Chickens are MAN-MADE! They do not exist in nature, they are bred BY MAN, raised BY MAN & eaten BY MAN! (And NO, I don't make any apology for shouting!)

I'm calm now, let me tell you about me. I am an omnivore. I eat fish, birds, mammals, insects, crustaceans (You get the idea) plus plants, bacteria & funghi. Basically, if it's too slow or stupid to get out of my way & has the genetic misfortune of tasting good, it goes in the big box labelled "FOOD".

You all have honest views about the rights & wrongs of vegan/vegitarian/fruitarian/carnivore lifestyles & the impact on other (than human) lifeforms, but you won't convince anyone until you start to think about the full impact of what you say.
1) "It just seems wrong to eat any bodily product from any animal" (Peace Person 30/12/07)
So, if you were to have children, you wouldn't breast feed?
2) "Even the fertile egg is not technically alive, etc" (Hilary 10/01/08)
Yes it is. Development is suspended, but male & female gametes are present & fused.
3) "Actually put into their mouths the menstrual excretions of poultry" (Pradtf 29/01/08)
Try reading a dictionary & relate that to something not mammalian.

FACTS are needed, not emotions, or you'll just get written off as namby, pampy, lefty, do-goody, commy, pinky, STUUU-DENTS!

But, PLEASE, keep trying to change peoples mind about what they eat. Back-yard is better than Free-range which is better than Barn-raised which is better than Caged.

Erm.... that's about all folks.

Love & stuff

Mark
xxxxx

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Permalink Reply by pradtf on July 9, 2008 at 6:52pm

Erm.... that's about all folks.
???
mark! i hope that doesn't mean you are going away already? you just got here - so welcome to veghaven.

now evidently you did not appreciate the bit of poetic license i took with the term menstrual, but surely you do understand that amniotic precision here does detract a bit from the imagery.

additionally, you seem to have missed peaceperson's point by applying the term 'animal' in her particular post in a way that she didn't intend to (she does seem to be using the term there as a non-human entity).

finally, before insisting that hilary's fertile egg is indeed technically alive, you might want to find out just what she means by technically alive or are you suggesting that the fusion of male and female gametes constitute living technically?

some of the advice you are giving us may be useful, but it seems to be coming out in a very emotional fashion (all the CAPS and love & stuff and all those xxxxx's). i really hope no one here will write you off as a namby, pampy, lefty, do-goody, commy, pinky, STUUU-DENT.

or were you merely trying to illustrate your point?

in friendship,
prad

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Permalink Reply by peace person on July 10, 2008 at 4:48am

Mark, I thought the human milk issue too obvious to need special mention. But to clarify for anyone who is uncertain: vegans can breastfeed their babies, even if they are bringing their children up as vegans.

(For those interested) Regarding bringing up children as vegans, yes, it can be very healthy for kids. The vegan kids I've met or heard of are always brimming with health and energy and happiness. Even the American Dietetic association says “Well-planned vegan diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth.”
from: American Dietetic Association (2003) "Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets" Journal of the American Dietetic Association, vol 103:6 (748-765)

Sorry, I'm getting very off track. Anything else you'd like clarified about what I've said, let me know. Have a good day :-)

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Permalink Reply by Hunger Artist on July 10, 2008 at 7:29am

Haha you must have been really bored. Anyway, in response to....erm.....everything you said....

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